Ramblings of a Crowe

And~ STOP! Story-time!

I never asked my parents a thing about sex. See, the one time I actually did my Mom was so visually uncomfortable she wouldn't look at me.

So I somehow make it to 9th grade completely in the dark, and the first thing they show us? A simulated RAPE. So after that, I wasn't exactly open to anything they had to say (which wasn't much save "AIDS AIDS AIDS, syphillis, uncontrollable masturbation").

So by then I'm like "FUCK that noise, sex is wrong, sex is pain, sex is GAY." 6 years go by, I'm still clean, and my Mom's like, "Oh by the way, your aunt was gang-raped in her 20's, and I've been kidnapped twice and nearly raped 3 times."

Well shit. THAT explains EVERYTHING.

To the convent!

Now 22, my best friend of 1 year (who, get this, was introduced to me by my mother for his "good qualities") turns out to be a closet lech. The freakin' Tony Jaa of everything sex, and lucky me will now be under his masterful tutelage. Seriously, he sat down and listened to 15 years of repressed memories, questions, and irriational sexual-phobias and just took it like an iron soldier.

Man, if my Mom only knew.. Holy crap.

*chuckles*

I asked mom about birthcontrol once. She absolutely flipped out.

Fortunately, I had the common sense to realise that mom isn't very sensible and I wrote it off as her problem not mine. I did the responsible thing, she was immature about it. *shrugs*

You know what this reminds me of? Dunno if you have it in America, but over here, there are TV adverts and stuff generally aimed at children (but also, I guess, adults) telling to eat fruit and veg. "Five a day". I for one find it absolutely hilarious that our country needs freaking adverts to tell them that fruit and vegetables are good for us. Almost as hilarious as McDonald's adverts about their regular cleaning schedules which were blatantly OMG WE WASH OUR HANDS WE DON'T GIVE YOU FOOD POISONING YAR. Oh, but I agree with you, especially on that last point.

This is why I'm glad I was raised in South Africa. I was introduced to sex from a very early age thanks to - ironically - a cartoon designed specifically to each about sex. Honest to nonexistent god, this cartoon is an educational video that talks and shows exactly what's beneath a man and woman's legs, and even showed a scene of a cartoon couple playing "hide the trouser-snake" (a.k.a. sex) in their bed. I learned several different names for the penis and vagina before I went to school.

Of course, I was so young at the time I thought it was just a fun cartoon like that Noah's ark cartoon with talking animals. SQUEEEEE! TALKING ANIMALS! But luckily, by the time I was old enough to understand just what the hell I was watching, I wasn't so shocked to learn what a man and woman can do with their naughty bits.

Oh, and if you wanna surprise a fundie who swears by the Bible but has never actually read the damn book, ask them to read the Song of Songs (or Song of Solomon). Someone who teaches about this book said he encountered a man who was so surprised by the Song of Solomon's graphic depiction of sex he had to check the front cover to make sure he was reading the Good Book. Ha!

I am Christian, and I like to debate. Here goes.

Ignoring your main point about sex (I learned about it hither-and-yon because of my own curiousity), the Bible _chronicles_ things, but doesn't always condone them. There's a story about a concubine being gang-raped then, after dying on her "husband's" doorstep (he was the one that pushed her out the door to be raped), she was cut into twelve pieces and a piece was sent to each tribe of Israel.

Obviously this is not something God likes, is proud of, or endorses (now I make it sound like a sports commercial or something). The Bible was written as a true story, I suppose, with all the good and bad. Less people would make fun of the Bible ("What, you get your morals from THAT old book? Please! Do you know what they _do_ in there, huh?") if none of the bad was written, but that would be more of a fantasy tale than anything else. Kind of like how that memoir "A Million Little Pieces" wasn't a memoir at all, since the author changed quite a bit about the story to make it more fantastic.

Jesus did know a prostitute, Mary Magdalene if memory serves which I doubt it does, but that doesn't mean he slept with her. People like to say that he did, but people also like to say that Edward Elric and Roy Mustang (Full Metal Alchemist. It's an anime - comes on Adult Swim, I think) are sleeping together even though it's made very obvious that they can't stand each other. No matter what the truth is, people will always see what they want to see, whether it be a relationship between two men who hate each other (or worse, Edward and his younger brother Alphonse. INCEST!) or Jesus having a relationship with a prostitute.

If you're referring to the story I think you are, then no the angel didn't want to sleep with anyone. The men of the town demanded that the angel (I can't remember if there was more than one, forgive me and my bad memory) be handed over to them so they could rape him. What made me hiss at that story was that the man hosting the angel offered his virgin daughters to the crowd instead of letting them have the angel. They didn't accept his daughters though; they wanted the angel. Not a pretty story, nor one I'm really fond of.

End point, the Bible is honest. It shows that men are evil and sinful far more than they are good and righteous. I think that sort of honesty is preferable, like how I'd prefer for someone to tell me up front that the guy I'm dating is a known rapist instead of just smiling pleasantly, if that makes any sense at all.

So...what makes the bible "honest" other than the fact someone behind a podium in fancy hat and robe tells you it is?

"No matter what the truth is, people will always see what they want to see."

Yep, and that includes people who will swear by the Bible and claim the most imaginative garbage even in the face of insurmountable evidence. I mean, someone actually believes the Bible's Old Testament points to crude oil reserves in Israel, even though the oil mentioned is closer to olive oil!

This reminds me of one of my favorite alltime quotes:

"Life in Lubbock, Texas taught me two things. One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, dirty thing on the face of the earth and you should save it for someone you love." -Butch Hancock

The Bible was written as a true story, I suppose, with all the good and bad.

Interestingly enough, if the Bible was written as truth, why does it borrow so heavily from mythology? Take Samson, for example. He killed a lion, had some trouble with prostitutes, slayed an entire army, destroyed a city, etc. Funny though, Hercules also has many of the same stories (Hercules was born in 1200 BC, BTW. Judges was written in later). Or what about Jonah? The Babylonian god Oannes is depicted as a man stepping out of a fish’s mouth. Also, both Oannes and Jonah were said to be great teachers (scholars). And let’s not forget Christmas, which borrows heavily from several ‘pagan’ traditions. Then we have Jahi the Whore which was a Persian epithet who mated with Arihman (serpent god of evil), much the same way that Lilith was said to lay down with the snake (Satan). I could go on, but the picture is pretty clear. Many of the stories in the Bible are hardly original, but just rehashed ‘new’ versions of really old myths.

Jesus did know a prostitute, Mary Magdalene if memory serves which I
doubt it does, but that doesn't mean he slept with her.

Doesn’t mean he didn’t either. But I digress. The fact that Jesus was friends with Mary Magdalene is interesting enough. She was a prostitute, something that today we shun and think of as vile. But to Jesus, she was important (I think there‘s a good lesson residing right there). Anyway, let’s talk more about concubines. They were sex slaves and prostitutes. If they, and sex, were so horribly sinful, why did the likes of King David, Solomon, Gideon, etc., have them? Even Abraham gave his wife up to have sex with different men (and God helped him gain wealth!). And Moses took a second wife (when his siblings criticized him, God punished them). So are these people burning in Hell now?

If you're referring to the story I think you are, then no the angel
didn't want to sleep with anyone.

That’s not the story I’m talking about. Actually, there’s entire book written about this (think Dead Sea Scrolls). See if you can find it. It’s an interesting read--though I hear many pious people hate it. But the word of God is the word of God, whether we want to hear it or not, right?

It shows that men are evil and sinful far more than they are good and righteous.

Exactly. Which is why I choose to be very selective about what I believe when I read the Bible and listen to a sermon. The Bible was written by man. Sure, it’s supposed to be God’s words, but how much has been lost in translation? How much has been changed to benefit the church? History shows us that the Church wasn’t beneath committing atrocities to keep/bring itself to power. Want me to name a few? How about the Spanish Inquisition? Salem Witch Trials (similar to the Inquisition)? The Crusades (yes, it wasn’t the Muslims…it was the Christians who started the whole thing)? How about the mass slaughter of so called ‘pagans’ (this includes indigenous people as well as other religious sects)? There are more, I’m sure you can look them up. But the fact remains that all these things happened while hiding behind the Good Book. Why should I believe that the Bible hasn’t been altered in any way, shape, or form to fit these horrible people’s desires?

What I do believe is that the Bible has some good lessons about hope, struggle, goodness, and triumph, that we can apply to our lives--but you have to look for it. I don’t believe for a minute that it’s supposed to be taken straight to heart from context. If that were the case, why are we girls still allowed to live in the house when we have our periods? Why aren’t we still burning calves? Why is shellfish so popular these days? If I work on Sunday, am I really going to Hell? My point is, this stuff is in the Bible, so why does everyone ignore it...if the Bible is a book of Law? And why is it that people only quote passages that suit their opinions, while ignoring the rest of the book? Isn’t that hypocrisy at its finest?

Faith is fine. It’s a good thing (when put to good use). But blind faith is foolish and often very, very scary (suicide bombers, anyone?). I don’t think there’s anything wrong with questioning the Bible. But most people won't--I think because their faith is weak and they are afraid of what they'll find.

And that's my take on it. I'm sure there are other opinions from the people who visit here. A few I know are Christian (like yourself), others are aethists, some are on the fence, some belong to another religion. Different opinions make the world go round!

SQUEEEEE! TALKING ANIMALS!

You have no idea how hard your post made me laugh. Could you see this being shown on PBS here in the US? Perferably between Teletubbies and Sesame Street.

So, I actually never had the talk with my parents either. One time when I was like 10, I was extremely concerned that my *boyparts* weren't as big as they should be. So I finally braved the embarassment to ask my dad about it. It took me over a month of concern to finally ask about it. I didn't dare ask my mom because she was always outspokenly against sex of any form. How I came to be I may never know.

Anyway, I ask my dad about this and he gets angry and tells me "Who told you that? Did somebody touch you?" I was so completely terrified by his reaction that I never asked him anything again. He never bothered to explain puberty like that situation would call for. I learned about sex from doing it. I learned about puberty from going through it. The entire time completely blind folded to what my body was experiencing.

Fast forward, a few years and I come out to my parents. LOL Yes J00k3ter... for me sex really was gay.

All the sudden sex between a man and a woman becomes this wholesome thing that my parents full-heartedly endorse when years earlier it was the seed of the fall of man.

If I had a child, I would never put him or her in the situation where they felt like they couldn't talk to me about anything... including sex. It exists. By hiding it you give it a mysterious curiousity. By denouncing it, you set the unrealistic expectation that good people don't have sex. So if you really wanna be a piss poor parent, that's how to go about it. Make your kid feel dirty and confused. Let them suffer through the whole thing on their own getting the story from their friends at school and having an incomplete, immature vision of what sex is and isn't. Or better yet... let rap teach them. What do you care if little suzy see's nothing wrong with being one of Bobby's bitches. Hey, she learned it where she could because you were too chicken shit to talk to her about it.

BTW If your kid is gay... it's still ok to talk to them about what you konw about sex. At least with straight sex they'll learn from their peers at school. If you are gay, you will just learn that you are that you are strange and disgusting from the kids at school. * rocks back and forth in his chair *

About the religious rant:

I could tell the world that I will be rewarded for killing myself to follow a UFO, and be deemed crazy.

OR

I could appeal to a group of outsiders and lonely individuals with the belief that God has promised us enternal life and heavenly reward if we form a family and kill ourselves to follow a UFO, and generate a large following willing to die for me. I could even write a book and claim that it was fortold to me in a dream.

The difference? The first is lunacy, the second is a religion.

Of course, I'm a queer who was only recently upped to the status of "love the sinner, hate the sin" by the Catholic church. It's nice to move up in the world.

My my my. Quite the rebuttal, indeed! Let's see what I can address. Keep in mind that I am an eighteen year old highschool senior with no formal religious training, only faith and some common sense. I do not know all the answers, and if I did I'd be off making millions somewhere instead of replying to comments in blogs.

The Bible I use is a King James version study Bible. It's got all sorts of helpful things in it like footnotes and what-have-you that explain verses and such. I recommend getting one if you're really curious about all this.

Catholocism and Christianity are not the same thing. It was the popes that ordered things like the Crusades, which were wrong on so many levels it isn't even funny. Catholocism bases itself off rigid religion (say twelve Hail Mary's and you'll be forgiven, confess to the priest, believe this wafer is Christ manifested, blah blah blah), and not faith. It's just.... mechanisms designed to make you think you're okay with God when you're really not. The Catholic Church was against translating the Bible because they wanted to control what the common folk heard of it, which goes against Scripture itself. Yes the priests twisted the Word. They made people think that buying indulgences made it okay to sin, which isn't true at any time.

The Bible has been proven true several times over, scientifically. www.godproven.com for one thing.

I'm sorry to cut this short, really, but I can't argue against everyone (what is that? Three, four different opinions there?) like this. The replies just pile up like so many bricks, and I exhaust myself trying to big up the whole bundle at once. I do know answers to some of the questions, and can refute some of the arguments, but I just don't have the energy to do so.

I feel like I'm copping out and I'm ashamed of that, but I've tried doing this sort of thing before so I already know I can't. For you guys it's as simple as chiming in once, leaving your opinion, and waiting for me to argue against it. For me it's collecting four opinions, remembering four opinions, and formulating a reply for each. Kind of exhausting, no?

So, if this really matters to you or if you're really curious about it, e-mail me please. I love theological debates, I just can't handle them in this form.

It's also 2: 39 AM, so please forgive my typos. My eyes are burning and I can barely see the screen.

Well, we have quite the despute going, don't we? We could go on for the rest of our lives debating the Bible and God. People range from Beleiving their is no God, to the extremist. Both sides seem to have good points. The Bible has inspired many people to do good things. Some people spend their whole lives trying to make the world a better place. Others use the Bible as an excuse to commit horrible crimes against humanity. It is all based on your beliefs, morals, and your interpretation. Some people, like Kantama, embrace the Bible and God. Thats good... but only for her. What I am trying to say is that everyone has a different belief and that they have a right to express this belief without criticism. What I believe about God and the Bible will piss off anyone that embraces either or, but that is my personal belief. Granted, some people take their faith way too far. Suicide bombings and inquisitions are examples. To me, religion is just an interpretation. You see what you want to see, which is why people believe differently. Basically, attempting to shoot down other's faith will not succeed. It will only make them more defensive. The same thing can be said for trying to spread your faith. Granted, it works for some people, but the majority of us already have our beliefs and are unwilling to change them.

Now for my view:
For me, personally, until there is scientific evidence of God and his works, I will continue to believe otherwise. I do not believe in the Bible, nor do I view it in anyway, shape, or form as "holy." Again this is only my view, but the Bible could have been written by anyone as just a novel. (It would be the bestselling book on the planet) My mom would skin me alive if she knew that I said this but this is my belief. (Told ya my belief would piss some people off) Anyway, I am not trying to get people to follow my belief and I do not want people to attempt to convert me or "show me the error of my ways." I just wanted to point out that everyone has a different belief and thats part of who we are as individuals.

Ok...I told myself I wasn't going to respond to anything, but I have to.

As a senior in High school do you know what a mutually exclusive idea is? Here's an example, faith and common sense.

Are you aware that King James dictated the writing of that version of the bible as he saw the world? It was highly influenced by his own personal opinions on life. And as a side note, history has made it quite apparent that he was an arrogant sexist. So if you're okay with basing your morals on the ideals of British King who hated woman and thought he was ordained to do as he pleased by God have at it.

Furthermore, Catholicism IS christianity. Christianity is not defined by how strict a religion is, it's defined by believing that Jesus was the messiah, or son of god. CAtholicism does in fact believe this. What sets Catholicism apart from "normal" christianity?

First, the catholic version of the bible contains what is called the Apocrypha. These works are works that the church deemed as "inspired" and thus they were added. Other Christian bibles do not contain this.

Secondly, Catholicism views the eucharist (that's sacrement: bread and wine for those that don't know)as being real. Where as other forms of Christianity believe the practice is symbolic of the flesh and blood, catholicism believes (though most don't REALLY believe) it is the actual thing through spiritual avenues. Sort of how jesus took water and made wine.

That's the REAL difference between the religions.

As for the CAtholic church being against translating the bible. Say what???

The bible was originally written in Cueniform. A form a chicken scratch writing that can barely be translated to begin with. Then it was written in Hebrew, because I hate to tell you this, Jesus was a Jew, and your bible is based on the Hebrew bible.

Interestingly enough Hebrew doesn't have a direct translation into modern languages either!

From there it was translated as much as possible into western languages such as Spanish, French, Italian, and enlgish. So you need to be more specific when you say the catholic church didn't want it translated.

The bible has been proven scientifically? Obviously, it exists. But that doesn't make the stories in it TRUE. I mean I can scientifically prove that Isaac Asimov's Robot City is a potential reality...that doesn't mean I should blindly follow all his teachings. Or better yet, Jules Vern who wrote books about undersea exploration, journeys to the center of the earth, and flight, long before they ever happened. Does that make him a prophet? No.

I might suggest that if you love to debate theology you actually do some reading other than the bible. There is a whole lot more history to the topic than what you learned in Sunday school.

I'm still boggling over Catholics aren't Christians...though I'm pretty sure they say the same thing about Protestants. You do realize that the Protestant Reform came after Catholicism, don't you? Why do you think the Catholics and Protestants have so much hate for each other?

In short, Protestantism stems from Catholicism. So saying Catholics aren't Christians is just ridiculous. If you want to argue semantics, then both Catholicism and Protestantism is moot, considering Jesus was a Jew--and Christianity is a rip off of Judaism. Have you read the Torah? I suggest picking up a copy to go along with your King James Bible (which I have, BTW). It's interesting to read them both. And if your really feeling crazy, pick up a copy of the Qur'an too. I imagine you'll be shocked to see what's written there.

I have to agree with Sarah here. There's more to religion than just what is taught at Sunday School, during sermons, and by your parents. Obviously, there are things YOUR church doesn't want you to learn--because every religion wants to be the RIGHT religion.

I can quote websites as well, but it doesn't make them true:
http://www.venganza.org/
http://www.cthulhu.org/
http://www.ldolphin.org/unruh/alien/aliens.html

That being said, Mia is absolutely right. Religion is a touchy subject and people are easily offended. However, I believe that my relationship with God is a personal one, and no ones business but my own. I don't need a church to worship in, nor do I need a congregation to worship with to be close to Him. *shrug*

You are making some very rude assumptions there, Sarah-san. I am more intelligent than you think I assure you, and I'm known for doubting anything and everything. I never believe what I hear unless there is scientific proof to back it up. That's just how I am. Please do not assume I operate off blind faith and enjoy hitting people with my Bible. I do neither, and I don't appreciate those people that do operate that way.

I am aware that Jesus was a Jew. This doesn't bother me. I may be from the South, but that does not make me racist.

It is difficult to translate any language into another. I realize that also. When a manga is translated, people always complain if it's been essentially changed dialogue-wise and such because they know the material and the characters to some extent, even if they can't read or speak Japanese. The words just don't fit, and fans know it. If Gaara from Naruto, for instance, suddenly started talking about butterflies and rainbows, everyone would know something had _definitely_ been lost (or mangled) in translation. In the same way, don't you think those Christians who do read their Bibles (The Scriptures call for us not to have blind faith, but to test what we know) would realize something was off if it was mistranslated? Despite what you think, Christians aren't all driven by blind faith and holier-than-thou attitudes. The Bible says to be kind to everyone, to bless those that curse you, and so on. Not a religion that advocates cruelty, no matter how you look at it. Read what it is that Jesus did. He healed one of the guards who came to capture him. Christianity is not a "I am SO much better than you!" sort of thing. Seriously. As I heard someone say once, "Don't say the teacher's a moron just because the students are idiots."

Oi oi...

"There is but one mediator between God and man; the man Christ Jesus". I know I'm not quoting that right, but that's the verse that proves Catholicism is not Christianity. A Christian prays directly to God, whereas a Catholic says "Hail Mary"'s and what have you. They ask the saints to intercede for them, when the "saints" were fallen, sinful people in life, no more holy than anyone else.

I do read. Quite a lot. I'm in the middle of reading "The Neverending Story", if you care to know. The Bible isn't the only thing I've ever read - not by a longshot.

The stories of the Bible have been proven true time and time again by historical finds and such. Before you go bashing me again, please do look at that site I linked above. It has loads of scientific information, all written far better than what I say here.

Next we'll all be arguing about how one determines "right" and "wrong", yeesh....

And I really ought to stop waiting hours before replying to things, I really ought to.

Yes, religion is a very touchy thing. Seeing as I won't stop arguing my point (and I doubt anyone else will, either), I withdraw from the conversation. I think it's reached the point of bashing, anyway. Reminds me of the days in the Sailor Moon chats (yes, I went to those. Stop laughing).

Le sigh. I always manage to get into debates like this. Too outspoken and too stubborn, I suppose. Oh well. Moving on.

Hey Zoso, what did you have for dinner?

Ummm...Oranges, cottage cheese, and a bagel. And you had...? Let me guess!!! Chicken boobies! I mean, breasts! :P

Kantama--

People here have merely provided facts from history (proven, written facts) and Sarah wasn't implying that you don't read books, nor was I. What was suggested was reading things related to religous history and theology, outside of the teachings of your church.

If you enjoy debating, you must know that knowing where the other side is coming from is important to countering their points, right? To do that, you'll have to take a deep breath and dive into their realm--all of it.

And I don't mean this to be rude, but referencing anime and manga in a theological debate doesn't do much for your credibility.

That being said, I'm locking this thread so we can all move on with our lives. No more fighting (including me)!